Because of how well explained the installation process was, I didn't add a user yay

#NetBSD

@mooooooo the login hasn’t changed since 1995 i see

@mooooooo ya know I was really seriously thinking about installing NetBSD, but i kinda need the interent to work

@ug if it serves, lubuntu wasn't able to figure out this diva either, not even in the proprietary drivers, so I think this computer just has a really cursed WiFi card

@mooooooo ah oooh, then it’s a super secret offline computer for secret writings then

@ug that said NetBSD couldn't figure out the ethernet either, which both lubuntu and Tiny Core got right so hashtag concerning

@ug @mooooooo “net” bsd

@ug I was calling it "low-spec testing environment for C games" but you know what? haha yes

@nautilus it's very cutesy and ergonomic, I can take it to the library and work anywhere very comfortably, but the WiFi card seems to be impossible for any Linux or BSD OS to figure out so I kinda need Ethernet to install what I need. It has a weird double hard drive that I don't quite understand but it's fine, I use the small one as emergency copies. The keys are small so it's a bit difficult to maneuver with long or fake nails. 8/10

@mooooooo oooh very cool, you are a real haxxer if you write games in C

hey maybe you can try installing DuskOS on it https://duskos.org/

@ug

> Its primary purpose is to be maximally useful during the first stage of civilizational collapse

@mooooooo yeah, and that could be any day now

@mooooooo then there’s callapseOS which is even wilder, like meant to be made out of microcontrollers

@ug also I'm afraid my computer's WiFi card was already doomsday prepping anyway lol

@ug obvs no shade to you but doomsday preppers are cringe individualists whose ego is built on top of the deaths of everyone who relies on public infrastructures there I said it

@mooooooo well, that could be true, but also reusing electronic waste is also good, like we can use things more efficiently in the now

and like, idk, it seems like civilizational callapse is just an inevitability, nothing is being done to stop it

then again the previous century saw millions die of famine and civilization kept on chugging

@ug yes my politics are based on the fact that I'm into bears who need CPAPs what of it?

@ug yeah that's my mixed feelings with permacomputing. love sustainability, love the repurposing and hacking, then inevitably some white cis straight guy goes "also fuck your access to hormones look at my bunker wouldn't it be cool if you died from an atom bomb? I would look so cool" and I lose interest

@mooooooo yeah i mean the anti-medicine or extremist anti-tech trend is disturbing, but i’m not sure how many people are unironically like that statistically, or like the shit people say about anarcho-primitists, how would they impose their ideal society on people? you could just shoot them with a gun post-apocalypse and they’d starve to death while you eat food grown with science, like i don’t see people like that as a thread so much as a nuisance because of their incoherent ideas

@mooooooo look there are white guys like that in every scene

@mooooooo like obviously if there is any technology that needs to be preserved it’s medicine, biology etc. the bulterian jihad preserves that the science of protecting and improving life

@ug from what I've seen, I'm not sure the people who are basing their social identity on being post-apocalyptic "I told you so"s are super-interested in rebuilding the medical infrastructres on which many depend, but I don't have an argument further than vibes there so idk. My feelings (operative word being "feelings") are that there's something a bit fascistic about being **that** okay with things collapsing and all those people being left behing. If I was prepping I wouldn't be proud of it lol

@ug but tbf a lot of my views on a lot of stuff are based on having gone to Uni with a bunch of transphobic techbros who would say the most rotten stuff to be all "rational" so I guess cw: traumadumping lol

@mooooooo

okay so there’s like the right wing prepper culture, and there’s the anarcho-left primmie / post-civ milieu, and there is some overlap but obvs a difference in values

i do think on the question of ableism, disabilities, medical technology this is something the post-civs rarely even consider so yeah that’s a valid thing to point out, and just waiting for the apocalypse instead of trying to stop is is really fucked up and fascistic like you say

but i think there is value in things like knowing how to farm or having emergencies supplies, and that kind of stuff gets mocked alot and no it’s cool, like you know whose gonna be doing alright when the oil runs out? Fucking campesinos living like they always did while the city folk are basically fucked

@ug I think the butlerian jihad and the bespoke "doomsday preppers" differ in more than just terminology. I have nothing but love for the people trying to extirpate these infrastructures away from capitalism and build community support and mutual aid, and I try my best to be one of them, but I haven't seen much of that when people are talking specifically about collapse happening and "we," the chosen ones, surviving it. As I said, though, just vibes and feelings anyway

@ug @mooooooo larp

@mooooooo ‘callapse’ is a big concept in anarcho-primitivism and post-civ tho, and you’re thinking more of the right wing preppers

@fiore @mooooooo

larping being a farmer, by literally being a farmer

@ug @mooooooo jreg tier reddit fantasy politics

@ug maybe you're right, I think I've just been primed to reject all of it by being overexposed to right-wing/ancap preppers, thanks for explaining

@mooooooo i mean the anarcho-primitists are also cringe af lol

@fiore @mooooooo

yes i’m such a cringe larper by growing some tomatoes and spices in my yard, you sound like fagmoder

@ug @mooooooo prime fiore ragebait

@fiore @mooooooo i’m very glad I’ve had the experience of going to the country side in central america and seeing how people live where there’s a lot of farms and so food out the wazoo, and with that comes a strong sense of community and mutual aide, and one really needs to be incredibly alienated to scoff at that kind of thing

@ug @mooooooo i grew up in the countryside so maybe u shouldnt assume things about me whaddya say my man

@fiore @mooooooo i didn’t assume that, i thought you were being ironic

@fiore @mooooooo can we all just like chill ya know like live in harmony with nature

@ug @mooooooo agriculture is cucked we must retvrn to . beries

@ug @mooooooo i think a computer is just as natural as tides or a bugs nest

@fiore @mooooooo

i really like the idea of food forrests, but it would require a lot of work intitially

the problem with shit like permaculture is the peopel who are really into it are like hippies, who neither know traditional agriculture or modern horticulture so they do shit that is actually really bad to do

@ug @mooooooo hippies dont exist anymore they all turned into silicon valley CEOs

@ug @mooooooo i realizr im still tech posting . ill do better

@fiore @mooooooo

yeah that’s a thing that people who want to sound smart say but it’s just a thought terminating cliche that ignores the various senses of what people mean by ‘nature’ or ‘natural’

@fiore @mooooooo this is true, nor they are QAnoners

@ug @mooooooo i disagree with most peoples idea of “nature” but im right and theyre wrong so like its ok . i can live with it

being wrong is natural after all

@fiore @mooooooo like yeah oil is natural, but the gulf of mexico wouldn’t be full of oil if humans didn’t spill it there

@fiore @mooooooo

right but by that logic literally everything is natural so it doesn’t mean anything

@ug @mooooooo humans are natural

judging oil spills ona meter of “not natural => bad” is wrong imo. oil spills are bad for a billion reasons , but them being “not natural” isnt one of them

take responsibility on your role in nature , stop seeing it as a Thing you need to Preserve on moral grounds . bla bla bla bla bla

@fiore @mooooooo this is why green anarchists say ‘wild nature’ as in life separate from humans, simply because of the pedantic arguments “uh that’s a naturalistic fallacy I can just dump motor oil down my sink”

@ug @mooooooo u r using “natural=>good” which is a huge mistake

@ug @fiore but don't you think there's something harmful about separating humanity and the things it does and makes from [the rest of] nature? Isn't that how we get the colonial "man vs. nature" literary ethos?

@mooooooo @ug exactly

@mooooooo @fiore that separation is real because that has been humans attitude towards nature for thousands of years, it doesn’t just dissapear if you say “well humans are animals” yes that’s true, and our civilization is antagonistic towards the biosphere

@ug @mooooooo that separation is not real actually , and only leads to bad things and bad thinking

also yknow whats natural ? radiation falling from the sky , galaxies smashing into each other, the nuclei of neutron stars . i think we can accept people making rocks do math as “natural” enough

@ug @fiore I think that's an odd conflation to make, you don't pour the oil down the sink precisely because you are nature and nature is interdependent and so is the sink, and it would be self-harm to harm nature or the oil or the sink

@ug @fiore but do you want to change that or do you want to assume it is essential in perpetuity?

@fiore @mooooooo

i think that’s just pedantry honestly, words mean different things in different contexts, when you say it’s not natural for a fish to breath oil, it means it’s bad, and it wouldn’t occur in the absence of human interevention.

Like traditionally there’s the distinction between ‘natural’ and ‘artificial’ it’s just a convention, that things are a certain way in our absense, and in our presence they change, human presence in ecosystems changes them, pointing this out isn’t absolving responsibility

say ‘humans are part of nature’ is just like Duhhh duhhhhh obviously no one is saying they aren’t exept ya know, God cucks

@mooooooo @fiore

i mean fair, but it seems like that argument that ‘everything is natural’ is deployed precisely to downplay the harm of polution and such, like oh the plastic is just as natural as anything else

@ug @mooooooo my point is that it shoukdnt mean that . my point is that its bad . its natural tho . its impossible to produce non-natural outcomes . by definition of what nature is .

artificial still means something, as a subset of natural

also . you are saying that human action isnt natural . your framework is putting Man as above everything else , as a Guardian of sorts . this is misleading .

@ug @mooooooo u literally keep implying that natural=>good and thats dirty rethorics

@ug @fiore "it's not natural for me to take feminising hormones"

did I do it right?

@fiore @mooooooo

right all those things are true, but doesn’t contradict what i’m saying because i’m talking about how words have different senses

@mooooooo @ug didnt wanna get here but it seems necessary atp

@ug @mooooooo there is only one s ense in whicj the word ‘natural’ makes sense . the other ones imply a flawed worldviee

@ug @fiore (i'm joking i'm not saying you're transphobic pls /j /j /j)

@ug @fiore ok this is a gangup which is wildly unfair and kinda violent so I'll stop sorry lovyu happy Vendimiaire

@mooooooo @ug its ok to gang up on him i allow it

@mooooooo @fiore

i would like to change it ofc, but you don’t just change it by saying oh well humans are nature and so actually the anthropocene is natural, and all the mass extinctions are natural

so humans killing literally everything we’re just the inevitable consequence of evolution you see, also there’s no right and wrong, naturally speaking

@ug @mooooooo nobody implied that natural=>inevitable . humans have agency

@fiore @mooooooo

do humans have agency? sounds like a metaphysical presupposition that humans are separate from non-human life

@fiore @mooooooo

that is one of the things to say of all time, so you don’t know anything about ‘naturalism’ in philosophy i take it,

Do you know in what sense Aristotle or Lout Tzu were “naturalists”?

@ug @mooooooo i think you need a logic class

@fiore @ug @mooooooo why

@fiore @mooooooo the idea words have one universal meaning is some real computer toucher delusional shit

@hipsterelectron @ug @mooooooo i personally Own all my users

@fiore @mooooooo

you need a philosophy class lmao

@ug @mooooooo no

its me implying that this one meaning aligns with a worldview i find correct

@maxine @fiore @mooooooo

frooty loops

@fiore @ug @hipsterelectron omg top-down mandate this is why I want to make an administration-by-popular-vote democratic fedi server omg omg

@ug @mooooooo u r making me cry

@coolbean I tried, but the empty password was disallowed

@mooooooo @ug @hipsterelectron this is a regime

@maxine @mooooooo @ug u r baiting me into software talk

@fiore @maxine @mooooooo

you’re using your tech bro ideology to tackle fundamental questions of ontology and epistemology and it’s not working

@fiore @ug @hipsterelectron sorry I'm back (negative)

@ug @maxine @mooooooo oomf calling a anarchist trans woman a tech bro 😭 #fadiblock worm.pink

@fiore @maxine @mooooooo

i didn’t call you that, i’m saying you have tech bro ideology brainworms

@ug @maxine @mooooooo u rlly rlly dont know me

@coolbean look, I appreciate it, but I was mega-struggling and I might need about a week of rest before I give it another shot

thx though

@fiore @maxine @mooooooo

okay let’s say ‘STEM brained’

@ug @maxine @mooooooo how to say malebrained without sounding transphobic

@coolbean

@fiore @maxine @mooooooo uh actually it’s misogynistic to assume that science and technology are inherently male coded

@fiore @maxine @mooooooo that’s right, i flipped the fucking script

@ug @maxine @mooooooo thats what im saying dont use it against me oh my GOD im banning you

@fiore @maxine @mooooooo

it would be natural for you to ban me, but you have agency or some shit apparrently so don’t please

@ug @maxine @mooooooo fiore era of peace

@fiore @maxine @mooooooo So do dogs or chimps have Agency or just humans?

@ug @fiore @maxine oh now we're challenging norms instead of asserting their existence and effects to be an ontological constant? Now humans ARE nature and it's wrong to assume continuity to the trend?

@mooooooo @fiore @maxine

i never said that human beings aren’t part of nature, but there’s also a division between humans and non-human, and by virtue of the power relations by being a hegemonic terroforming species, something unprecedented in the history of earth, there’s numerous things like language that differentiate human beings from other things, and just the kind of species level conciousness humans have, there is clearly a division

now maybe from the perspective of an anti they also see everything in terms of ant vs non ants, but we’re not ants we’re humans

so the conventional separation of ‘natural’ vs ‘artitifical’ is still in the every day sense useful, if only because we don’t have responsibility for what can’t be blamed on our intervention

@ug @fiore @maxine ok sorry it was too juicy

@ug @fiore @maxine wait wrong image

@ug @fiore @maxine can't find the right one so it'll do

@hipsterelectron @fiore @mooooooo

i really don’t get what was so controversial

@hipsterelectron @fiore @mooooooo but really tho, do chimps and bonobos have agency or just humans?

@ug @fiore ok that makes a lot more sense I get it now

@ug @hipsterelectron @mooooooo yea and saying no is specist

@fiore @hipsterelectron @mooooooo so if a chimp rips a ladies face off, you think that chimp should be tried in court and held responsible for it’s actions?

@mooooooo @fiore

so there’s this hindu saying:

in some ways it is in some ways it isn’t in some ways it both is and isn’t in some ways it neither is nor isn’t in all ways it is indescribable

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron cats have agency, they just use it to be homophobic

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron (no but really I do think they have agency, humans have patterns of behaviour too )

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron

how about no body has agency and we’re all just caught in a web of interdependent origination ?

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron courts are a feature of the specific way some human cultures have developed societies, not of agency

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron but I mean you could

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron then you can't blame me for pouring the oil down the sink

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron why can't I choose the right meme omg

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron

yeah courts presuupose agency that one chooses their actions, another way to put it, is your dog morally responsible for shitting on the rug?

@ug @fiore phenomenology

@mooooooo @fiore no nothing like that

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron yes but he doesn't know the specific laws that apply to the Province of Girona jurisdiction, because courts are a feature of [...], not of agency

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron

i think a chimp is smart enough to know you’re not supposed to rip humans face off, but didn’t care because fuck humans

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron

predestination

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron courts presupose you're on board with the state and its codes and laws*

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron

no they do not, you do not consent to the law anywhere, what most modern courts consider determining factors for whether you are ‘fit’ to stand trail is you have the ability to reason and so are responsible for your actions, so someone with severe disabilities or mental illness, may be disqualified, but again this is a modern invention. Plenty of people get forced thru legal systems without understanding what is going on.

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron I'm not doubting the chimp could ace the test to become a lawyer in the Province of Girona (/s), I just think you misunderstood what I said and are coming about in a roundabout way lol, the point is the judgement of the courts isn't about agency, it's about something else entirely

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron

i understand what you mean about courts being a historical human phenomena, but we are in human society, and the basis of morality responsiblility and so legal liability are predicated on an assumption of agency.

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron ok not "on board," maybe "cognitively aligned" is a better expression

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron also that would mean the bounds of application of the court system are arbitrary and dumb WHICH I AGREE WITH AND IS COOL AF just so we're clear

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron wait up I need to reboot my phone ._.

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron

indeed, actually i think the only thing that prevents humans from putting animals on trail is the capacity for language, you betcha if that dolphin fucker ever figured out how to translate dolphin and whale speech they would be trying them for their numerous crimes against humans

@ug @fiore @hipsterelectron ok so the thing with which I agree and that I think is cool is the notion that the justice system is dumb, not the justice system being dumb, hope it's clear

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron

talk about a kangaroo court

@mooooooo @fiore @hipsterelectron talk about a monkey trail