Defining what is meant by "instinct" and "instinctively" is much much much harder than I think most people realize.

It's almost as big of a mess as "natural"

@futurebird as someone who doesn't even believe that nature exists but is convinced there's got to be *some* stuff that's hardwired, thank you for that "almost"

@apophis

No one has given a definition of nature that isn't either absurd* OR just vibes based.

However most definitions of "nature" are BOTH.

*including and excluding things that no one would agree makes sense

@futurebird I always just thought it was used as an action that something takes or knowledge someone has that doesn't require conscious thought.

We humans might have some things from birth (avoiding bodily waste, recoiling from pain, etc.), but can train ourselves (or be trained) to add to or subtract from that list.

@AbyssalRook

This is how it is used. But, what do we mean by "the weaver bird builds a nest by instinct"

One thing we mean that is clear, is that they are not taught how to do this by another bird. But if you watch a bird weave they will solve problems, make adjustments, get better at selecting materials. There is learning within the process.

@futurebird next explain the color red!

@froge

Red isn't as bad since I can show a color just about everyone will agree is red. I can also show "reds" that will start arguments, but there are some reds that are pretty universal. So you can say that red is distributed around these, except when it's contextual. As in "red hair" which is really a warm shade of light brown.

@AbyssalRook

Sometimes when someone hands me something to fix I can't explain what I'm doing. "I'm fixing it."

What is THAT about?

@futurebird @AbyssalRook so basically like how (virtually) all humans have some capacity to learn and produce language, but no one has ever uttered a sentence that was entirely formed from nothing but a priori hard-wiring in their brains...

wondering what happens with an orb weaver... they definitely need to work stuff out given the huge variety of arrangements they need to deal with, and the end result of the orb pattern has to be consistent, but what goes on in what they subjectively want to do/react to that results in that pattern? it's definitely not a top-down blueprint for an abstract orb web surely......

@futurebird @froge the way we parse light going into these particular anatomical structures in our heads as a representation of space and colour was one of the things that had occurred to me as soon as i saw OP as one of those things that's clearly instinctual rather than culturally acquired, but come to think of it the fact that we even perceive these bands of different wavelengths as *qualitatively* different things is there too

i wonder how it even evolved

@futurebird wdym this is just common sense /s

@xarvos

**high pitched whining resumes**