i just think questioning whether something mainly benefits house and business owners is something worth pursuing , thats all

i associate clean and nice cities with friends gojng homeless and rent prices gojng up. do u blame me

@fiore i associate trash with infectious diseases & vermin infestations but idk abt u

@annamaria @fiore something can be dirty without being filthy yaknow

@coolbean @fiore ?? these words are synonyms to me. what do u mean

@annamaria how is some trash and cigarette butts lying around the street gonna bring diseases in any meaningful way

@annamaria @fiore @coolbean dirty is a physical property & filthy is an emotional property

@sierra @fiore @annamaria not actually a bad explanation although my thought was more that filthy is innate while dirty is ephemeral. a crackhouse or trash can are filthy but my floor is dirty. i can clean my floor relatively trivially, its not a hazard. just not clean either

@fiore @annamaria better explanation of what i meant. dirty, not filthy. not spotless but not a hazard

@fiore bc like dirty standing water lets mosquitos breed & trash helps feed like rats which carry disease & junk like rusted metal can carry disease like idk

trash multiplies itself anyway if no one cleans it up

@annamaria maybe a more sustainable waste model id required then but idk this may be actual leftist policy so like we wouldnt actually wanna get into that

@fiore it thinks it is more worthwhile to first pursue aiming for better working conditions for those who clean the cities . like , lets be real . your littering will bother no wealthy person as much as it will be yet another pain to the underpaid , socially considered " you dont want to end up like this" worker .

when it visited your place it was genuinely shocked that they clean the cities AT NIGHT . for what reason do these workers , who are already receiving incredibly little pay and so much stigma , also forced to work at night ? further detrimenting their personal , social and familial lives ?

cities should be cleaned during regular working hours , and it personally overall finds it much more productive to approach this from a working class perspective than one where one is just blindly destructive to see if itll stick . youd probably have more of an impact on their unpaid overtime than on actual property values

@fiore @annamaria yes you do need basic sanitation for human and environmental health. Cigarette butts leech all their cancerous chemicals into soil and water aren’t biodegradable. Why is everyone so stupid that you have to reexplain basic ecology? I would really hope “leftist” policy doesn’t force people to live in diseased slums because there is no sanitation team???

Sorry if I’m being mean I just don’t understand why people struggle to understand cause and effect now?

@fiore @annamaria yea. like generally the thing i associate with the words "clean and nice city" are like those blank facades of tile and glass that a lot of highrise buildings have at street level because its easier to keep clean and incentivises people to go somewhere else because loitering is bad for business or whatever

@reia 100% agreed actually , i briefly touch on this later in the thread if it scrolls down

@KaiserKitty @annamaria > soil

what soil . we are talking about a city that lives on top of a 5 meters slab of cement . what soil .

@coolbean @annamaria im beginning to think european city centers are inhabited by fundamentally different classes of people than american ones

@KaiserKitty @annamaria also , agriculture in italy is literally just a big larp . agricultural products are just sold as fancy things while real people eat food thats cheaper and imported from countries where the average European wouldnt live because “cities are too dirty :c” . lmao .

@fiore @coolbean @annamaria oh american cities are WEIRD. if you go to any church in downtown phoenix, white flight is part of their history. they either moved when all the white people went to the suburbs or they didnt. st mary’s basilica is a beautiful church right in the middle of downtown phoenix. it bordered my college campus and i used to pass nuns on my way between classes. all the catholic diocesian governance happens out of there. it is NOT the cathedral. the cathedral is some stupid chud looking church in the suburbs bc the bishop’s seat moved with white flight.

trinity cathedral (the episcopal one), almost moved but they decided not to in the end. not bc they were woke so much as bc they were lazy iirc. there are a bunch of apartments sitting in the corpse of a big old baptist church (it looks really cool to be clear) bc that baptist church left with white flight. (not to be confused with another baptist church being turned into apartments. that church was just broke and theyre still in downtown phoenix. they are proud to not have left with white flight).

phoenix is an absurdly sprawly city. you can drive a couple hours at full speed on a highway and youre still in phoenix. we have 5 million people (1.8 million in proper city limits) and one skyscraper and that singular skyscraper is vacant. this is bc during white flight in the 70s and 80s all the white people (who also had all the money) left for government-subsidized american-style suburbs where their family had their own house with land and yards where kids could play in the sprinklers (but probably won’t bc grass kinda cant survive here except by throwing infinite money at it). cities like phoenix just annexed the land where the white people were moving and didnt go bankrupt but kept their hitlerite voting patterns. cities like detroit went bankrupt.

tl;dr american city population distribution is fucked (in ways that vary by region and are heavily driven by racism even though a lot of the suburbs are at least getting more racially diverse today)

@lizzie @annamaria @coolbean yea no thats not a thing at all , european city centers are where all the rich assholes live and where all tge tourists are

@fiore many small business owners actually oppose anti-litter policy because it stops them from just dumping their junk onto the local community for someone else to suffer the consequences of, the pro-litter position is just actually existing randism.

There's currently a big ongoing problem in the UK about large scale flytipping by small businesses and organised criminal groups: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c5vz86pdemgt - BBC articles that mention flytipping

@fiore @KaiserKitty @annamaria microplastics and cancer causing forever chemicals migrate via the wind and water, it doesn’t matter where you litter.

@FagMode59er u arent understanding what i am actually talking about here

@karebu @annamaria @KaiserKitty i guess

@fiore im going away to read every comment youve left about this before getting back to you bcs i know it sucks to have people halfread threads then start mocking arguments you didn't make 🙏

@coolbean @sierra @annamaria @fiore i was thinking filthy as in shit and snot and slime and other things that have pathogens while dirty could just be rock dust and plastic packaging material

(though inhaling the latter can also fuck you up)

@fiore @annamaria banning all the advertising and marketing stuff that a proper post-eschaton government would be banning anyway would go a long way in dealing with non-biodegradable packaging trash

@annamaria @fiore stop the hate on rats pls, they don't really carry diseases
Also plastic and cancerous materials litters do fuck the city wild life a lot, small mamals and birds are not very resilient to pollution

@tisanae @fiore sorry im uninformed…