If there's anything that illustrated the hollowness of the Democratic Party as an effective opposition for me, it's this.

Yesterday, I watched a video of a sitting US Senator being thrown to the ground and cuffed by fed goons for asking questions of the fed official he has direct oversight authority over.

Within minutes, I'd gotten DOZENS of texts from Dems and Dem orgs asking for $5-$50 to "fight fascism."

That's it. "Are you terrified that your country is slipping into fascism? Pay me."

@pluralistic

They nickel and dime the poor for donations, while accepting millions from billionaires, all the while assuring us they're the party of the working class.

@pluralistic it was definitely a big The Onion Is Always Somehow Right monent

(Ed.: whuuups, no, it's from Hard Times. whatever, the sentiment that most Dems are ineffective stands.)

@jgilbert @pluralistic

The stakes are never too high for Democrats to present meaningful opposition in the face of the most horrific crimes.

@jgilbert@mastodon.social @pluralistic@mamot.fr

Shit like this is why (even though I don't actually like him) I was hoping to see Hogg announce that he was starting an independent of the DNC and ActBlue fund to carry out the primarying plan that got him ousted.

@ferricoxide @jgilbert @pluralistic
The Hogg story is just your daily reminder that there is nothing democratic about the Democratic Party.

@jgilbert @pluralistic This is from The Hard Times though: https://thehardtimes.net/news/democrats-will-continue-relentlessly-doing-nothing-if-you-just-pitch-in-5/

Tone deaf aren't they; Bernie tries at least.

@pluralistic
The texts were offensive

That 40% of the senate Dems went and voted for Trump's Grypto bill after was infuriating

Primary every single fucking one of them

If it's from politicians that have been doing the fight the whole time, like the one I got from Rep. Maxwell Frost, I'm more than happy to contribute more if I'm not maxed out. If it is spineless Do Nothing Democrats like Chuck Schumer then fuck no. I only give to people that are doing the fighting not the people feathering their nests.

@hankg @pluralistic
Right...?
Like, are we talking about the same Dems who had FOUR-fucking-YEARS to prosecute the Orange Mussolini but instead yawned while the Supreme Court of the Land gave him a golden ticket of immunity...? Those Dems?

Yeah. No.
☠️ 🇺🇸 ☠️

The Dems are complicit: Whether by design or incompetence.

@mloxton @hankg @pluralistic
Congratulations.
The Bad Thing is now happening.
*slow clap*
"Everything is ultimately peculiar and ultimately ridiculous."
-- Thomas Ligotti
#doomed

@clintruin

So this is the thing that burns me - people who fantasize about what should happen in a just universe and then blame the ONLY group of people who try to do the right thing but are ineffective. The dems didn't have the clean slate you pretend, Mueller was ALWAYS going to do a slow shuffle to nowhere, and nobody was going to do a rocket docket and throw white conservatives in jail.

So slow clap all you want, Dems didn't create this mess, and shaking a fist at them is dumb

@hankg

@mloxton @hankg
Okay.
...so here we are then.
☠️ 🇺🇸 ☠️

@mloxton @hankg
https://youtu.be/ZSCXwHEG0_w?si=T8gN9uUGUj5uvkwF

@clintruin
Fuck no.
Discordant music and someone screaming at me is not going to get any sort of message to me.

@hankg

@mloxton @clintruin @hankg

***Important***

MATTHEW, WE NEED 5 DOLLARS RIGHT NOW TO CONVINCE OTHER PEOPLE TO COME BACK TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY BECAUSE YOUR STAID DEFENSE ISNT WORKING. 7X MATCH UNTIL NOON PACIFIC TIME!

@ciggysmokebringer

https://med-mastodon.com/@mloxton/114677131311723776

@clintruin @hankg

@mloxton @clintruin @hankg

***MATTHEW, WE NEED TO TALK***

WE KNOW YOU CARE ABOUT DEMOCRACY MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE WHICH IS WHY WE ARE DOING A 10X MATCH ON DONATIONS OVER $50 UNTIL NOON PACIFIC.

@ciggysmokebringer

Look, yelling childish stuff at me is not going to make any sort of argument.

If you want a good conversation about the role of money in US politics, the effect that "Citizens United" has on voting, and how the entire "money-centric" culture in the US drives towards fascism, then sure, let's discuss that.

But shouting really basic stuff at me is just going to make me think you are an imbecile

@mloxton

Why is that method good enough for Democrats as a primary form of outreach about current political events and situation then?

I can pull more texts from my phone that Democrats have sent me if my point isn't made, but you're more than smart enough to connect the dots and how it relates to the OP, and you even said this method is imbecilic.

But not too imbecilic for Democrats, I guess. Have a good one, until next time.

@ciggysmokebringer

BECAUSE IT WORKS!

Your representative spends as much or more time in office trying to raise funds than doing their job because, as I have fucking said, money -> campaigning -> turnout

That is because American voters see voting as a kind of dating game or buying a pumpkin rather than a duty.
As long as large numbers are disenfranchised and even larger numbers don't bother voting, money drives elections and politicians always have their hand out

Both parties have a hand out

@mloxton

It doesnt work well enough given we are in a thread about how alienating it is to would-be-voters, into not trusting Democrats enough to vote for them. In the aftermath of an electoral loss where people got more of these messages from Democrats than any other message, even when self selecting information.

Do you really wanna talk about 'whale hunting' as a form of fundraising for a political party, in an ecosystem where most of us are not whales and respond poorly to it?

@ciggysmokebringer

"not trusting Democrats enough to vote for them"

And there is the bigger reason we are where we are. Yeah, the constant fundraising is irritating and alienating, but not fundraising is a death spiral for politicians. If they don't spend half or more of their time fundraising, they will be toast the next time. If you don't have huge corporate and billionaire donors like Reps, you either constantly beg individuals, or flame out

Because American voters treat it like dating
/2

@mloxton

Its incumbent upon a political party that has control over its own operations to determine when to ask for money, how to ask for money, and how often to ask for money.

Nobody is saying 'they shouldn't fundraise', most folks are saying that fundraising can not be their boilerplate response to everything, as it seemingly has been for comms about the situation and what Democrats are doing about it.

I know you've waxed on about prophylactic measures being the most effective measures, but they seemingly fail because of who is deploying them and how they are. Condoms are reliable so long as a total klutz isn't trying to wrap their jimmy in it, right?

@ciggysmokebringer
"incumbent upon a political party ... when ..., how .., and how often to ask for money."

Sure
But how would you know that they are getting this wrong? I'm pretty sure they have all kinds of experts on fundraising, so why do you assume they aren't maximizing income?

"prophylactic measures ..."

So what would you have them do, given the enemy, the constraints, and the voting bloc they serve?
From what I see as an outsider, they seem to be doing about as well as they could

@ciggysmokebringer

... and that's EXACTLY what you just did. You posed it as "not trusting Democrats enough to vote for them", like you are picking a cabbage or dating, not as YOUR duty to identify the best candidate and voting for them.

As long as tons of voters are prepared to skip voting or vote third party because the least bad politician wasn't up to their standards, we will keep sliding towards fascism.

The problem isn't dems, it's fascists, corporate/billionaire funding, and voters

@mloxton

I know they're getting it wrong by some consensus in threads like these that being blasted with text messages in response to all the current events is dispiriting, even if the money comes in to Democrats. I know they're getting it wrong because despite the ability to raise money to record levels, the utility of the money raised isn't returning results.

That's why I mentioned 'whale hunting' before - yeah, a company can make profits off milking the most passionate users using all sorts of exasperated relentless marketing technique, but they only wind up with whales after a certain amount of time. And whales won't always pay the bills unless they're generating more whales somehow.

One thing I would have Democrats do is hold back on Text-based Fundraising for Midterms in 2026, until 2026, just in case one of their 70 year old incumbents running for reelection croaks between now and then.

@mloxton

And just as a softball swing here, Harris' campaign raised a billion bucks, bragged about it, and turnout didn't follow. There's a threshold of money to be present, I'll grant that for sure, but your own framework broke apart in 2024.

@pluralistic So, what should they do instead? Does the minority party in America have some secret powers we don’t know about?

For a party to have power, they need votes. To get votes, they need money, especially since the GOP has multiple billionaires funding them.

I am SO sick of people attacking Democrats for what the GOP is doing. It is infuriating and absolutely pointless. In fact, it’s counterproductive to torpedo the opposition party.

Last night I heard an interview with a psychologist. She explained how the need for revenge is something innate due to our evolution. But she also said people who feel weak end up redirecting their revenge or anger towards those they feel safe to attack. It’s why somebody will yell at their spouse after a bad day at work… they couldn’t bring themselves to yell at the boss.

So I guess that’s why people are attacking Democrats. It’s not that they cannot comprehend that the majority rules. It’s that they are too weak to fight the people in power. So yelling at Democrats is their “kick the dog” response.

@mls14 @pluralistic
The problem isn't democrats not having enough money... The problem is democrats supporting #genocide, #antiimmigration, #oilAndGas, etc. The problem is that they are spinless and won't even stand up for themselves, let alone their constituents.

@sb @pluralistic I recommend following @benroyce if you want to learn why taking potshots at Democrats and not voting for them just makes this worse.

In a nutshell, I see his take as: if progressives don’t vote, but centrists do? Of course politicians are gonna cater to the centrists.

@mls14 Cory didn't say anything about how one should vote. He said some accurate things about the actions and character the current Democratic party.

@sb @pluralistic @benroyce

@jpaskaruk @mls14 @sb @pluralistic

what cory says is "this sucks"

and cory is correct

and?

what do we do about it?

because just leaving our thought process at "this sucks" has no value

it's what we do about it that matters

doing nothing but wallowing in cynicism and lying to ourselves with a false self-serving arrogant superiority, leading to helplessness and alienation while the world goes to shit, is not a valid option

which is not cory's intention

nor should it be ours

@benroyce I've said before, you can vote your way into fascism, but you cannot vote your way back out.

The implications are numerous, but among them: the Democratic party is not going to be particularly useful to those who do the actual fixing, over the next while.

The excommunication of David Hogg indicates to me that they are determined to prevent anyone from fixing the party without a major action; they may be the only game available, but they are another one of the problems currently faced.

Again though, this is not an anti vote toot, cause anytime someone criticizes the millionaire party that seems to be the conclusion jumped to. But the voting isn't gonna move the needle anymore.

@mls14 @sb @pluralistic

@jpaskaruk @mls14 @sb @pluralistic

My simple basis for a criticism of your comment is: then what? What is the alternative solution? I say take over the Dem party. Who cares how they treat Hogg if we primary them the fuck out

@benroyce @jpaskaruk @mls14 @sb @pluralistic right? This definitely needs to happen.

Thing is, the fascists took charge with a multi-pronged/fronted approach. They use legal and illegal tactics; they took control of political bodies and used civil unrest to normalize and push. They use propaganda. It is certainly true that we can’t just vote our way out of fascism, but it doesn’t mean that it is pointless to not take over the Democratic party and push it to be a useful leftist organization. It’s not going to be enough on its own, but we know leaving them like this is actively harmful.

Primary the fuck out of them. Keep yelling at them, breaking their ties to oligarchs that keep directly supporting fascism. Now is absolutely the time.

We definitely have to do more, but… both. both is good.

@aud @mls14 @pluralistic @jpaskaruk @sb

Thank you

When we say people should vote they act like we're saying that's the only thing we have to do

A vote is just something easy and quick in a larger struggle, it's not a magic bullet. Opposing it on the basis it's not a magic bullet is clueless or outright manipulation

People act like a vote has to be an exciting romance or they won't. Then the country goes further to shit. Partly because of the toxic idealist assholes out there who don't vote

@mloxton @clintruin @hankg @pluralistic and then the bad thing doesn't happen so you can prevent it the next time it threatens to happen, instead of being grossly weakened and drained by the first time it happens that the next time it happens it happens even worse

the republicans were widely scorned and mocked and ridiculed for decades and continue to be but they actually do the thing and they win because the win condition is that the thing gets done

if your win condition is nothing but social approval it will destroy you and it will be for nothing

@mloxton @clintruin @hankg @pluralistic
> waiting for it to get worse so that it gets better

> literally named after an observation about societal positive feedback loops that exacerbate injustice https://en.wikipedia.o...

@ciggysmokebringer
I'll deal with this first.

Actually, the fundraising worked exactly as expected, but a Russian and Iranian active measures operation to orchestrate an attack on Israel, and then serving up a dilemma to Biden/Harris was hugely effective in making 10-11 million dem voters to stay away. The Iranians and Russians knew Israel would probably overreact, and split dem voters.

But the data are pretty clear that fundraising -> campaigning -> turnout, and that's why they do it

@mloxton

The fundraising as a discrete action in the service of raising money worked as expected, Democrats just didn't have hands for an emerging geopolitical situation and thought they knew what their own would-be-voters would stomach and put up with?

This is part of the OP critique that revolves around 'missing the moment to fundraise'.

I mean, you can dryly say that 'they got hit by a bus on their way to winning' but a lot of people are onto the next step of 'why are they always getting blindsided like this on their way to winning?'

@ciggysmokebringer

They get blindsided bc they are not as Machiavellian as their opponents. The dems have a very large proportion of older voters who are spring-loaded to defend Israel bc of the remaining shame and guilt over the Holocaust, and their sensitivities of antisemitism that emerged in the 60's and 70's. Another large block is young people, who didn't inherit the Israel bond, and instead see what Israel has done.

Taking a hard position on Gaza would alienate one or the other

@mloxton

So then we go back to the square of 'Who should bite the bullet about this?' and just for the purposes of seeding future lifetime voters who have faith in the party through validated listening and changing position...

I would say the older cohort who insist on party loyalty above all else can much more easily bite the bullet and display exactly what that means to their younger peers, like a baton passing olive branch, with faith those younger peers will do the same when the time comes. I know, pretty wacky, but cultivating faith is part of the ballgame.

And in fact, one of the larger demographic problems of the Democratic Party is manifest in its members dying or humiliating themselves long after they should have rode off into the sunset - whether thats a conscience/theory problem among the politicians themselves, or a selection problem among an aging loyalist cohort - it doesn't do the party any operational or forward looking favors to let death turn it over.

@mloxton

Also, another sidebar about an aged cohort that has been around since before Carter...

Between Nixon, Reagan, and W Bush, there were 3 major incidents of fuckery against Democrats and each and every time, Democrats collectively let it go and went back to touting their ability to work with the GOP.

It's like, if I took 3 hotfoots over my lifetime, I wouldn't pretend the person who did it was my necessary copilot and then assume they stopped trying to give me hotfoots after I wrestled the flight controls away from them for once.

@ciggysmokebringer
"every time, Democrats collectively let it go and went back to touting their ability to work with the GOP"

Right, but that is exactly what you want. You WANT a party and politicians who will keep trying to be collaborative until there is absolutely no way to do so. If the dems acted like the reps, we would have been in a hot civil war ever since Nixon, and there would be now be no city that wasn't a smoking ruin, as tit for tat bombings and killings were a daily event

@mloxton

That's the theory of a Liberal Democracy and one can make the convincing argument that the longevity of the US is rooted in purposeful avoidance of conflict between the pillars of power.

However, the gap here, and really since 2016 is that there doesn't seem to be a way to signal to the Democratic Party that we are in a civil conflict, a legitimacy crisis, a constitutional crisis, as a voter, because Democrats wouldnt ever admit to one being in progress for the sake of avoiding catastrophes you allude to. If Democrats don't say that it's on and popping, then surely it must not be?

And this is why banging the drum about fascism as a Democrat does fall apart - because you can't build up an eternal vigilance against fascism by playing along with it for so long and underselling the threat to keep a lid on it, then flip around at a few crucial inflections and insist the entire way of life hangs in the balance.

It just doesn't resonate and comes across as 'just saying it to say it' because credible opposition wouldn't play along and try to net electoral reward for playing along. Nevermind doing what the GOP does 1:1, just not playing along is the most one could ask for and hope for.

And the most flippant ass thing about deferring a conflict for so long is that a lot of us wish that did happen because it seems poised to happen now, and all the fibs and finesses about a better world seem for naught, at least through one more avoidance.

@pluralistic I as a Canadian regret sending $5 to get a Bernie sticker years ago. Unknown calls from US numbers ever since.

@Alison @pluralistic

Yep. I kept getting calls from politicians in Florida a decade after leaving Florida, and I got sick of it. So, I answered the next call and told them to get me off this call list as I cannot legally vote in Florida anymore and haven't been able to for a decade. And could they please update their records for fucks sake. She was so apologetic.

Now I mark their calls as spam because it never stops no matter what

@mloxton you have obviously never done anything useful in your life

you speak of hanging, perhaps you should get some rope and be of at least a little utility to others around you

@mloxton you're wasting everyone's time arguing nonsense on the internet, i'm telling you to kill yourself

@mloxton there's nothing i can call you that's worse than what you already are

@mloxton nah just triggered by seeing your gross pfp on my notifs

but seriously can like 20 people reply to this telling me to kill myself or posting goatse or something i really don't want that in my peripheral vision

RE: https://kill-corporations.enterprises/objects/6d08be0a-1378-421a-9e9b-a32c500ee2fa

@apophis no offence or anything but I still don’t get why all the fediblock enjoyers are mad at eris and not you

@mold @apophis lack of 30 minute long youtube videos on the topic robably

kill myself or posting goatse or something

@squish @apophis the videos are a relatively recent development though

@mold me, arcana, i'm sure there are others

like i *used to be one of them*, surely i get a betrayal multiplier here

@mold but i know i'm also the world's easiest blockandmoveon, like a lot of my hostility is geared specifically towards ending further engagement so no one remembers me

@mls14 @pluralistic They have a ton of procedural leverage they can slow things down and make life miserable for the right. Mitch did it all the damned time. Why Obama and Biden couldn't get more done at all. The dems are just cowards and think it will look bad if they don't act bipartisan, never mind that the GOP has been hyper partisan and refuses to work across the aisles since Obama first took office

@martinl @pluralistic what would you like the democrats to do? be specific.

@Slyence @martinl @pluralistic They have a ton of procedural leverage they can slow things down and make life miserable for the right. Mitch did it all the damned time. Why Obama and Biden couldn't get more done at all. The dems are just cowards and think it will look bad if they don't act bipartisan, never mind that the GOP has been hyper partisan and refuses to work across the aisles since Obama first took office

@pluralistic May we officially call your place a shithole now?

@ernestoDuracelli @pluralistic Oh we've been 50 third world nations in a trenchcoat for decades now. Ok maybe a few are first world, uncertain though.

@pluralistic so, you need to sponsor your politicians on top of the taxes you pay? Like the thing with the waiters?

@chaos0815 @pluralistic It's like how our teachers have to pay for school supplies, or there are now ads even though you've paid for the service so they can make another tier of subscription service so you can pay more.

@pluralistic

The USA needs a 3rd option, one that is REALLY on the left.

@Captain_Jack_Sparrow @pluralistic We need multiple parties, with top 4 RCV, approval voting, or any other alternative form of voting. Only then will a really left party emerge. Maine and Alaska are too red to have one of those parties yet sadly. Elon spread enough BS to prevent 4 states from getting RCV in 2024 which was salt in the wounds after the Trump win. It looked like it was a really popular option. RCV may not be perfect but it was better than what we have.

@apophis @hankg @pluralistic @clintruin @mloxton The thing the Republicans did was get the rich to finance an incredible hate campaign. For example, there are constant professionally produced videos of trans people behaving badly in public that pretend to be real events rather than actors on a set, posted on social media. This hate campaign was doing the thing it took to win, and it worked.

@pluralistic I know. Anything becomes an opportunity to beg for money. Instead of concrete action. We need a viable third party not completely beholden to money and moneypeople.

@Gladso @pluralistic Small donations mean the party isn't beholden to big donors, but small donations only come from asking. You're complaining that the party is trying not to be dependent on big donors.

@jhavok @Gladso No, I'm complaining that the party's reflex to a democratic catastrophe is to ask me for money (25 times in 10 minutes) rather than send me texts telling me where to show up for the protest. I am not an ambulatory wallet. I am a citizen. The Democrats do not ask us to be part of politics, except to vote (rarely) and donate (several times/day).

@CorvidCrone @Alison @pluralistic wouldn't it be illegal if you have them money? And had a record of it?

@mcr314 @CorvidCrone @Alison @pluralistic

As long as you're an American citizen (or even a permanent resident), you can legally donate to candidates in a different state (or territory or federal district). But you can't donate to Bernie as a Canadian; you have to pay for a sticker instead.

@TobyBartels @CorvidCrone @Alison @pluralistic I'm not an American Citizen. GOP candidates spam me weekly asking for money.

@mcr314 @CorvidCrone @Alison @pluralistic

Interesting! I wonder if they can get in any trouble for that, especially if they're contacting you at a Canadian address. (I assume that they're not mailing you, but maybe your phone number has a Canadian area code or your email address is at a Canadian domain.) In any case, at some point in the process of donating, there should be a place where you certify that you're an American citizen or permanent resident. (At least the Democratic donation website ActBlue has that.)

@TobyBartels @mcr314 @Alison @pluralistic

That would make it harder for the GOP to launder foreign donations